After reading Ellington Darden’s new book The Body Fat Breakthrough and thinking back on discussions I’ve had with Wayne Westcott, Ryan Hall, Jim Flanagan and others and the results of a recent paper by James Steele, James Fisher, Jurgen Giessing and Franke Rothe I’ve decided to give negative emphasized training a go again. I wrote about my experiments with negative emphasized training three years ago, and recommend reading it for the general performance guidelines, although some of those differ slightly from how I’m doing them now.
Unlike the three to four second cadence I discuss in my recent article on repetition speed recommendations, which I consider to be a good compromise between tension, microtrauma, metabolic stress, safety, ability to maintain focus, and other important factors, because of the longer time spent performing the stronger, more metabolically-efficient negative phase negative emphasized repetitions favor tension and microtrauma over metabolic stress.
In addition to Westcott’s study (discussed in his book Building Strength & Stamina) and the impressive results Ell Darden has been getting with people following his negative accentuated protocol and the results I had using it a few years ago, the study James Steele told me about which is currently under review for publication got me thinking about negative emphasized repetitions again. Within a reasonable range, relative effort is much more important than load for improving muscular strength and size increases. This is part of the reason a variety of repetition methods, cadences, and ranges can be effective when performed with a high intensity of effort. Load is still an important factor, though, and the implications of the study are you should try to maximize both if your primary goal is bigger, stronger muscles (keeping to what you can handle safely to avoid not wrecking yourself in the long run).
In the study they compared three groups. One group trained to momentary muscular failure (MMF), another stopped short of momentary muscular failure (NTF), and another performed rest-pause repetitions and stopped short of momentary muscular failure (RP-NTF). The MMF group had the most improvement in strength and body composition despite not using as heavy a weight as the RP-NTF group, demonstrating the primacy of intensity, but the RP-NTF group improved more than the NTF group, demonstrating the effectiveness of using a heavier weight, and that less efficient inroading (from the rest between reps) does not negatively effect muscular strength and size gains. I suspect that a fourth group doing rest-pause repetitions to momentary muscular failure would have done better than the regular MMF group.
I have also experimented with rest-pause in the past with good results, but I think emphasizing the negative may be more effective for improving muscular strength and size than resting between reps.
I planned to follow the same protocol I had used previously, with a three second positive and ten second negative, but for the sake of keeping the rep counts consistent for comparison with I will instead be using a two second positive and eight second negative. Two seconds should be just slow enough to allow for reasonably good turnaround performance, and eight seconds is a slow enough negative and keeps the repetition duration around an even ten seconds, keeping the time under load around the same for the same repetition range (five to eight repetitions, for a TUL of fifty to eighty seconds).
In short, I’ll be using a 2/8 protocol and a repetition range of five to eight. I will continue my current routine, training twice weekly alternating the following brief, full-body workouts:
A
- Squat
- Bench Press
- Row
- Lateral Raise
- Pullover
- Stiff-leg Deadlift
- Neck Extension
- Neck Flexion
B
- Deadlift
- Dip
- Chin-up
- Standing Press
- Arm Curl
- Heel Raise
- Wrist Extension
- Wrist Curl
Other than reducing my daily kcal intake to around 1800 I won’t be making much of a change to my diet. The reduction will be from both carbohydrate and fat, which eat roughly equal amounts of, to maintain a protein intake of around a gram per pound of lean body mass daily. Of course, the clomiphene citrate and anastrazole will factor into my results, but I won’t know how much until I have follow up blood work done to determine the effect on testosterone levels.
In addition to reporting on my own results I will be using negative emphasized repetitions with clients whose primary goal is improved body composition. If you want to try this and have questions please post them below, and if you do please come back and share your experiences with them after a few weeks. I’ll be interested to see what kind of results everybody gets.
A note on the terminology: Ell Darden calls it “negative accentuated”, but I prefer to use “negative emphasized” to avoid confusion with the Nautilus negative accentuated protocol which involved lifting a weight with both limbs and lowering it with one, alternating sides each repetition.
Update 6/14/14:
I did not feel I was able to perform the turnarounds as strictly as I would like using the two second lifting cadence, so I increased the positive duration to three seconds. I initially reduced the negative slightly to keep the rep duration consistent, but have since gone back to the 3/10 protocol I experimented with originally.
Comments on this entry are closed.
Hi Drew,
I’ve been experimenting with this kind of training for a couple of months now so I’m glad to read a little more about how to go about it more systematically. Right now I try to go slow (4/4) for the first couple of reps (both the positive and negative) and then speed up the positive a bit as I get closer to positive failure thinking this is safer. I’ve been doing it especially with the arms protocol you blogged about a couple of weeks ago which includes a negatives only element, and have been enjoying the workouts and results!
It seems that after training for a couple of years, the weights are too heavy for me to be doing positive and negatives at the same (slow) speed, and because I train alone, it was the only way I could get closer to negative failure.
I’ll take a look at the other article you wrote too on negative emphasized training.
Right now I’m looking to gain size again. The last time I gained a significant amount of muscle mass was following one of your split routines in your book. Any particular reason you have designed your routine the way you have for the NE training you’re doing?
Thanks!
Randall
Randall,
There’s no need to go to negative failure, and doing so on a regular basis can quickly lead to overtraining. I recommend going to positive failure, then continuing to contract for about four or five seconds just to be sure, then slowly lowering the weight and terminating the set.
The workouts were designed to address all the major muscle groups while providing specific focus on arms and delts, which are my worst muscle groups. I go into detail on workout design in the upcoming High Intensity Workouts which should be completed before next weekend.
But did it result in more muscle mass gain? As you know, \increased strength is not the most important factor when determining if one protocol is better than another. What matters most is a positive tissue adaptation.
My current routine is more like a 6 up, 10+ second negative.
Fred,
Westcott doesn’t mention mass gain, but if a method produces significantly better strength gains it should correlate to better muscle gains as well.
The important factor with negative emphasized training appears to be the relative rather than specific duration of the positive and negative and Ell Darden has gotten good results having people do just a 30 second negative, a 30 second positive, and a second 30 second negative. I’m using 2/8 to reduce the ratio further and to maintain a relatively consistent rep duration for comparison with my standard 4/2/4 cadence.
Just done my first workout using this protocol and what a shock it was, just three sets in I’ve not felt anything like this for a very very long time!
The level of fatigue and inroad has to be experienced to be believed plus a massive pump. A word of caution though it’s not for beginners as it requires massive levels of discipline and mental toughness…
You right there mate, after hitting a platau for months now, I done a sesh of negative emphasis 3/10 and the pain and fatigue is unbelievable still four to five days later.. Haven’t felt this way in years.. I think I been doing it wrong all along.. Great pump too… I also limited it to two sets max per exercise.. I think one would also get good results.
Very interesting article and idea Drew. I have been torn recently between trying negative emphasized training and a rest/pause approach.
I have read up on Dardens 30-30-30 protocol. What are your thoughts on such a slow speed (I know you highly respect Dr Darden so the question may not be a fair one – not trying to put you in an awkward position).
My rest pause Idea was based around Greg Andersons protocol. One of his sessions was based around the deadlift and dip. 5/5 cadence and 10 second rest between reps, but after reading your post on the subject maybe a 5 second rest between reps would be better. His target was 7 reps before upping the weight.
I am looking to try either or for the next 6 weeks to give me an idea before I go forward.
Any suggestions Drew? I appreciate the time and advice, I know your busy.
Richard
Richard,
These are all effective ways to train, but I find people have less difficulty performing lower turnarounds smoothly than unloading and loading smoothly between reps, and unless a metronome is used people tend not to maintain a consistent rest-pause duration, making it difficult to compare performance between workouts. Greg’s protocol is similar to what Mike Mentzer was doing back then, except Mike was using fewer reps and near max loads, and we experimented with something similar a few years back using a five second rest with good results.
I suggest trying one method for a month or two, then the other, then decide based on how your body responds.
Drew,
About rest pause and squats (5 or 10 secs rest between reps), what is your opinion: “resting” with the bar on the shoulders, or unload/load the bar from the shoulders?
Starting each rep from the bottom position?
Arthur,
If you perform squats using rest-pause you should pause at the top without racking the bar so you do not have to move you feet once you’re in proper position. You should start each rep from the top.
So are you suggesting that TUL in the eccentric is of more importance to the weight of the load? I know that you have stated in past that training with a greater weight in the eccentric is better than increasing the TUL because the muscles have a greater chance to recover during the long period eccentrics, or something along those lines, making the exercise less effective.
Alessandro,
The relative duration of the positive and negative affects the load you are capable of using. All else being equal, a longer negative means a slower rate of fatigue, but the ability to use a heavier load compensates for this and it averages out. As long as the total TUL of the set is not too short the weight shouldn’t be so heavy to make strict form difficult or significantly increase the risk of an injury.
Hey Drew,
Is this a routine you perform whilst training at home with free weights? Do you still have access to a line of MedX? If so is the decision to train at home one of convenience?
Based on the 1800 calories you’re now taking in, what do you estimate you were taking in previously?
AC,
I work out and train clients at home now, using the UXS and free weights. weights. This is mainly for convenience. When we move into a bigger place I plan to get a few Avenger machines, though.
I don’t know what I was taking in previously, but it was a lot more than 1800 kcals.
Drew,
I’m using for more than a month now an app on my android called “Impetus Interval Timer”. After installing within minutes I was able to set up a preset for a 3/4 cadence (I try to do 10 reps). After a countdown of 12 seconds which gives me enough time to put down the smartphone and to get ready for the first rep it goes like: “Up One, two, one, Down One, three, two one / Up Two, two, one, Down Two, three, two, one / Up Three, two one, Down Three, three, two, one”, ecc., all while listening to my favourite music. I can’t think of anything more perfect for counting reps and seconds at the same time.
I’m coming from 5/5 (8 to 9 reps) and before that I did 7.5/7.5 (8 reps). It’s too soon to tell if this “short” cadence together with a shorter TUL gives me better results. All I can say for now is that a positive of 3 seconds feels rather fast being used to almost double the number of seconds. Having read your (as always great) article I almost felt like jumping on a 3/10 cadence but I think I better experiment for at least three months the one I am trying lately. I am very interested to know what you will have to say regarding your negative emphasized experiment once you have tried it out…
Mike,
I prefer a regular metronome, because you are not going to be able to perform every repetition perfectly on cadence and you’ll end up out of sync with a fixed count later in the set when you are moving more slowly.
A variety of repetition speeds can be effective, but I prefer more moderate repetition cadences for general exercise because the increased mechanical work appears to be beneficial.
Hi Drew,
Which is the best for muscle growth, 3-5 repetitions 3-10 seconds? Or 5-8 repetitions 2-8 seconds? Thanks!
Diego,
I doubt a second or two either way makes much difference. I chose 2/8 for the sake of keeping my repetition duration consistent for comparison.
Drew,
will you be using negative emphasized negatives repetitions with all the exercises? Negative 8 seconds will be safe for the deadlift?
Given your recent injury, will not be excessive the weekly frequency for squats / stiff-leg deadlifts / deadlifts? You already are an advanced bodybuilder, how can you still progress at the frequency of 2 days per week?
For your hard gainers clients do you advise them training two times full-body each week?
Arthur,
Yes, I will be using them for all of the exercises. Any speed slow enough to allow for good turnaround performance is safe for the deadlift.
Twice weekly is not excessive for most people, even advanced trainees. A lot of people have gotten carried away with cutting back their volume and frequency to the point of undertraining because they confuse workout performance with progress, overestimate how quickly they should progress at different stages, and fail to optimize other factors related to recovery like nutrition, sleep, and minimizing stress. As you become bigger and stronger and capable of placing greater demands on your body during training you will eventually have to reduce volume and frequency, but many people cut back too much, too soon.
Drew,
For a “good turnround performance”, do you advise, for the deadlift, that the weights touch the floor at the bottom of every rep?
Arthur,
The weights should touch the ground, but just barely, and they should remain motionless for a brief moment before you start the positive to ensure a smooth start without bouncing or jerking the weight. They should not be set down completely unless it is necessary to reset your grip.
Thanks for the reply Drew
I have taken your advice about trying a style for a while. So I am trying a slightly altered version of a Jim Flanagan program (below):
1. Glute Bridge (described above)- 10 Reps to Near Failure of good form
2. NegOnly Chin – Weighted to 10 for Failure
3. Weighted Glute Bridge – Same as above
4. Pushup/close grip bench – NegOnly Weighted 10 reps
5. Weighted Glute Bridge – Same as above
6. Chin – Same as above
7. Pushup/close grip bench – Same as above
8. Weighted Glute Bridge – Same as above
I will use a 5 second lowering speed for the negatives, but will try and lift the weight myself in the positive using as quick a cadence as I can which will slow down during the set. The second set will probs be negative only.
Thoughts Drew?
Thanks
Richard
Richard,
Like I wrote earlier, exercise should never be performed explosively. Two seconds is already on the fast side, and most people can just barely perform good turnarounds at this speed. The beginning of each repetition should be performed in a slow and controlled manner so that you gradually accelerate from the start position.
I don’t know what your goal is with this workout, but that’s a lot of glute bridges.
Hey Drew
My goal is overall strength and size gain.
I have had previous lower back injuries and have neglected my posterior chain. I can’t heavy squat just now (the original workout from Jim Flanagan had squats instead of glute bridges but I am trying to strengthen the lower back, glutes etc).
You think it’s ok?
I was going to train tomorrow but due to a busy week am feeling tired still, should I leave it or train again?
AND …. If I was to do a second workout each week would you repeat the same session or do something different eg instead of a horizontal push and pull, do a vertical push and pull?
Thanks Drew
Rich
Richard,
If your lower back is a limiting factor I recommend hip belt squats instead of glute bridges for the hips and thighs, but if you also want to target the back they might be a better option than deadlifts, depending on the type of injury. You’d be better off finding a gym with good machines and doing leg press and trunk extension, though.
If you’re not feeling 100%, rest longer. You’re better off getting a little more recovery time and being able to put a greater effort into your workout.
A good program will include both horizontal and vertical pushing and pulling movements, so adding or alternating between them would be a good idea.
Drew,
Will you also be doing negative only on movements that allow for it
like weighted dips and chin ups? Or using momentum to get a heavier weight up on bicep curls or down on tricep cable pushdowns, etc?
Ben,
No, I won’t be performing negative-only repetitions on any exercises, just negative-emphasized repetitions with a 2/8 cadence. I want to see how I respond to these before I mess with anything else. I will not be cheating the weight up on any of the exercises; any increase in reps or load it would allow would not be worth the increased risk of injury from loosening form.
Drew
First session of routine I posted (above). This is going to take a few days to recover from!!
All weights achieved though. 5 second negatives and explosive positive which started at about 1 second and finished the set about 3.
Richard
Richard,
Slow down the positive to at least two seconds. Exercise should never be performed explosively.
Hi Drew.
I just completed my second workout with emphasis on the negative part. I find it the 2/8 cadence better than 4/2/4. I think it has to do with the 2sec up is easier to manage when it gets hard.
After my recent workout I realised that would like to get more out of the negative face. So I got an idea. What if, when you are done with your set, you change your weight (has to be a machine) to about 65 % of your starting weight. Then start lifting with both hands and lowering with one, changing between left and right until your negative is completely fatigued.
Hope to get a commend
/Thomas – Denmark.
Thomas,
I don’t recommend it. It’s easy to overdo it with these types of repetition techniques. If you’ve already performed a good number of repetitions extending the set beyond a few reps can be counterproductive if done too often. The only time I recommend dropping the weight to continue an exercise is if you fail to complete at least half of your minimum target repetitions.
Drew,
After our short email conversation about BMR and calories last week, i picked up Dr. Dardens book. Will be starting training using the 30-30-30 protocol and nutrition program next monday (if time allows for me to get to the grocery store this weekend).
Im doing this mainly for fatloss, although i do know that muscle gain is a helpful part of it…
Any tips you think would help me out, besides following the advice in the book?
Dave,
I strongly recommend taking comparison photos and measurements every month for documenting and evaluating your progress, and keeping a journal. Consistency is one of the most important factors in getting and maintaining results, and keeping track with photos, workout charts, nutrition logs, and a journal helps maintain consistency.
Negatives don’t create as much metabolic stress, but doesn’t it add greatly to muscle soreness (DOMS)?
I think some people get hooked on DOMS as proof that they did something really intense, but I’m not sure that this is a reliable indicator for strength of hypertrophy adaptations. At least that seems to be the prevailing option, DOMS does not correlate with gains.
Also, the only time I’ve hurt myself recently is when doing slow negatives on chin-ups. While trying to resist the negative descent, I think I really bore down with my grip, and somehow over torqued a tendon in the vicinity of my elbow. So maybe there is relatively greater risk of form breaks?
Craig,
All else being equal, eccentric contractions are less metabolically demanding than concentric contractions, however because of this it is usually possible to use a greater load for the same duration when the negative is emphasized, which is beneficial.
Protocols which emphasize the negative produce more soreness because of the greater microtrauma, which is an important factor in stimulating muscular strength and size increases.
Because of the greater loads a person can use doing these protocols you have to be more careful with the turnarounds and during negative-only repetitions it is essential to transfer the load from your legs to your arms in a controlled manner, but when done correctly they are reasonably safe.
Drew,
Do you intend to test your strength after trying this protocol with a before and after comparison of something like a body weight chin performed at 4/4? I would be curious to see if you T.U.L improved though a drop in body weight could sort of skew the results.
Jim
Hey Jim,
Yes. At the end of the summer I will repeat the last two workouts I performed with the 4/4 cadence and compare. While changes in bodyweight will obviously affect things like chin ups and dips I can compensate by wearing a dipping belt with additional weight.
I have no doubt the TUL will improve, I’m just wondering how much. Of course, since this is just me, and because other variables have changed it will be impossible to say how much of it is due to the change in protocol. My testosterone has nearly tripled on the drugs my doc prescribed for fertility and is already noticeably affecting my progress. I also have some one-on-one and phone clients experimenting with this, so I’ll have more than just my own results to report on.
Drew,
This blog entry was posted on April 25th. Will you post again at the end of May to let us know how the first month and the first 8 or so workouts have gone? I don’t think I can wait until the end of the summer to hear how things are progressing.
AC,
Yes, I will be posting periodically on my progress. However, the fertility meds I am taking have nearly tripled my testosterone which is going to also significantly effect progress.
Starting a HIT program based on your principles. I plan on mostly a body weight approach mixed in with some dumbbells. I have limited access to equipment. My question relates specifically to Negative pull ups.
1. Do they work?
2. How would I implement them into a HIT regimen?
3. Is there something better with limited equipment; i.e. no lat pull down machine.
My current plan is to perfrom: 1. Squats 2. Pushups 3. Negative Pull Ups 4. Rows 5. Overhead Press. 2 x a week, 1 set, 4/4 cadence, max. effort whatever reps that might be.
Hey Carter,
Yes, negative-only pull-ups are very effective if you are unable to perform at least a moderate number of normal repetitions and do not have a pull-down machine. Another option is to use a shoulder height bar so you can provide assistance with your legs.
I recommend chin-ups over pull-ups as your main vertical pulling exercise, because the supinated grip puts the biceps in a stronger position.
Drew
I was looking over your routine. Both days look like a page pulled from my log. I was curious about your thinking in doing deadlifts twice in one week. Seems like a lot.
Jim,
Like most things, it depends on the individual’s recovery ability. I’m able to make steady progress hitting the full body hard twice weekly, and I have some clients who do well on similar routines, but some people will require more recovery and need to reduce the frequency or split the body up over the two workouts.
Hello Drew,
This is my first time reading your blog, and I dig it.
I’ve been doing the traditional workout routine for some years now — 5 days a week, for 1 to 1.5 hrs each day. I run a small start-up biz, the wife and I have a 4 mont old, and I simply don’t have the time I did before to keep up that routine. I’m an ecto-morph that as put on some size that I don’t want to lose. However, I’m not toned as I would like. Dr. Ell’s work is a radical shift from what I’m used too mentally and physically. Will his 30, 30, 30 rule work for my body type? Or should I try a mix. I really like your routine as well, and more so that it’s only twice a week. Oh, and what about “week-point” training? My shoulders, arms, and calves don’t develop as quick as everything else.
Jordan,
I think Ell’s 30/30/30 protocol would be effective, although I don’t know whether it would be more effective than doing ten reps at 3/6, which would still give you thirty seconds of positive and sixty seconds of negative work.
If you have specific muscle groups that don’t seem to progress as quickly as others I recommend alternating your full body workouts with specialization routines for those muscle groups. I cover these in detail in the new High Intensity Workouts.
Hi!
Hey Drew, I started testing this negative emphasized type of training. I found myself using too heavy weights, which ended up being 1-3 positive reps + negative-only reps (I didn’t want to leave the sets too short). I noticed that the negative-only reps were really exhausting and now – after the workout – I have a feeling that I really pushed myself ’til the end. This got me thinking:
Negative only is “better” than negative emphasized?
It seems that a training partner would be really good thing with this negative-only training. I had to use my imagination to get the weight into starting position (of the negative) safely, or at least safely as I could. What do you think about negative-only approach and can you point out anything specific about it – to keep in mind?
*One extra question. I’ve noticed that my deadlift form starts to go bad in the middle of the set, and this negative emphasized training really showed how round my back can in the start of the positive. I’ve been thinking to switch to stiff-legged or this machine, which can be used with deadlift also (the bar wont come in front of you etc.), maybe this would help. I always thought that my technique with deadlift was actually pretty damn good. I’ve also thought about static holds in the middle position of the deadlift rep, would that be any good to strengthen my back area etc.?
Hey Chief,
I’ve written a new Q&A to address the first part of your question: Q&A: Negative-Emphasized Versus Negative-Only Training
If you are finding it difficult to keep your back straight after a few reps of deadlifts but are not experiencing the same fatigue in your hips and thighs I recommend combining the negative-emphasized reps with a five-second rest-pause, which will allow the more predominantly slow-twitch back extensors to recover a little and give you a chance to reset your back and grip between reps.
Another great read! It’s great, like me, you are eager to experiment with anything that will deliver better gains. Your rest-pause proved successful, shaping my training success so far in 2014. I read Ell’s new book last month, but as I was doing fine on rest-pause I kinda dismissed it. I played around with 30/30/30 but found it a tad tedious. But now, thanks to this article and Paul’s success – he and i share almost matching training lifes – I am keen to give 2/8 a whirl.
I tried out a set of seated curls today, pleasently surprised how great they felt…my body knows when something “works” or not. Ell and I recently discussed lower TULs for us fast-twitched blessed (I have known Ell since 1983). He confimed my belief that 20/20/20 would most likely be more suitable. I prefer the 2/8 idea, so will adjust accordingly.
For a long time I had pondered extending the negative…the most productive aspect of a rep. It’s great to see someone followed through with my suspicions. I’ll test it out on my next 4 week cycle and post back my findings.
Lifter,
Even if what you’re doing works well, you should always experiment occasionally and try to find ways to improve on it. I’ve been very happy with the results of this so far, and have been experimenting with performing negative-emphasized rest-pause on some exercises, which I will write more about in a future post.
A rep tempo of 2/8 is quite the toll! Seated bb presses left my poor delts and triceps on fire!! I can’t wait to try it out on back and biceps tomorrow. This significent step up in intensity… something I thrive on.
Lifter,
Yeah, I found it pretty brutal. I ended up using a slightly slower positive, around three seconds, but kept the negative long and although I’ve always pushed myself to train pretty hard this feels more intense.
Just HIT back, bis, calves…2/8 was quite the stimulus. Each muscle is not depleted with a nice buzz going on. On such a gruelling method brevity is a MUST!
I am keen on test-driving this and see what wonders lay ahead. I’mm keep you updated Drew.
Drew what are your thoughts on 30-60 negative only reps?
I am referring to dardens 30-30-30 protocol in which he says the dip and chin can be done for one slow negative of 30-60 seconds ( dependent on trainees strength levels). Once successful weight can be added.
What ar your thoughts on this for different movements, not just dip and chin? And as the technique used in training every muscle?
Thanks
Richard
Richard,
Extremely slow negative-only training is an effective way to train, however some people have difficulty moving smoothly when going that slowly. I prefer to use a ten second cadence for negative-only, which is slow enough to be reasonably safe but not so slow the number of repetitions has to be reduced significantly. It isn’t known whether performing more repetitions of negative only is more effective than one very slow one lasting the same amount of time, however I suspect the greater mechanical work would result in more microtrauma creating a more effective stimulus for growth.
So far so good. I am delighted with the follow-up muscle discomfort from each negative-emphasis workout. Such depth of discomfort leaves no doubt about the level of stimulation. I am surprised my calves took 18 hours before the pain kicked in… where my lats and biceps, trained the same time, let me know how they felt as soon as I awoke the following morning.
You are definitely onto something here Drew! A crucial step towards deep inroads.
Hey Lifter,
While soreness may give some clues as to the degree of microtrauma a training method produces it isn’t a reliable indicator of effectiveness. Your progress from workout to workout and changes in measurements and body composition will give you a much better indication of how well it’s working.
I’m also finding it’s working well, although as I mentioned previously the clomiphene citrate and anastrazole I’m taking for fertility are having a huge influence on my progress as well so it’s hard to say how much of the change in results is due to the protocol versus the drugs. This is nothing new, though. Arthur was recommending performing the negative more slowly from the beginning, using a two second positive and four second lifting cadence, and others have experimented with variations on this in the past.
Hello Drew,
All of your feedback here has been great.
I’ve been reading what you and Lifter have been discussing here, and find the info intriguing. For the past two weeks I’ve been using Dr. Ellington’s 30/30/30 negative accentuated protocol with regards to my weight training once a week, however I don’t feel that I’m getting the proper muscle stimulus that I used to with traditional methods — I’m not sore at all afterwards, yet I do feel depleted/exhausted. Normally within the next couple of days I can feel what I’ve done to my body, as well as feel and see the pump. Not so with Dr. Ell’s philosophy. I’m not implying that it doesn’t work; I believe it does. I’m just not certain if it’s for me. Anyhow, for my first workout session of two beginning next week, I plan on performing one set per exercise (3+/8-) for a total of 10 sets/exercises @8-12 reps to failure (not all the same muscle group), and then repeat 3 days later. I don’t want to overtrain. Any thoughts?
Hey Jordan,
As I mentioned to Lifter, soreness is a poor indicator of exercise effectiveness. I’m sure Ell’s 30/30/30 protocol is effective, and the reason you may be experiencing less soreness may be because there is less microtrauma with a single long rep than multiple shorter ones. The only way to fairly compare the two is to perform each for a few months and compare your changes in strength and body composition and circumference measurements.
True, while soreness isn’t everything, I know my body well and what it needs to induce growth. This level of pain and discomfort is what I have felt before moving to the nex sizxe level on past occasions. The lingering effect psychologically comforting.
Thanks for all your help Drew.
Out of curiosity, how do you think your neg emphasized reps compare to BBS super slow?
Richard
Richard,
In the study by Wayne Westcott they also performed positive emphasized reps, using 10/4 protocol, which was similar to Ken Hutchins earlier SuperSlow protocol of 10/5. While both positive and negative emphasized repetitions increased the strength of advanced trainees that had previously plateaued, the group performing negative emphasized training improved more.
One unexpected side-effect kicked in last weekend. I have had muscle twitches here and there during my life, but Sunday – 4 days after being HIT – my left bicep twitched wildly during the day! I quickly learnt once weekly is sufficient on something as powerful as this…and I have better than average recuperative abilities.
Thanks Drew
I tried your 10/4 set up. I am doing a power yoga routine each morning to help a bad back and its great. This doesn’t always leave me much time for a lot of other training. Would it be fine to pick a couple of movements eg a horizontal push/pull and do one movement and one set with a 10/4 negative emphasis?
Thanks
Richard
Richard,
Very little exercise is required for good results, but I recommend minimally performing upper body pushing and pulling movements in both horizontal and vertical planes and both a quad and glute and hamstring dominant lower body exercise. If you are pressed for time you could alternate these. There are several very brief “consolidation” workouts in High Intensity Workouts which you could do in under ten minutes if you’re short on time.
Thanks Drew
How many times a week are you working each muscle if you are only doing one set a piece?
Richard
Richard,
All the bigger muscle groups are being worked directly twice weekly. I have adjusted my workouts since then, going back to more varied compound pushing and pulling movements and adding a C workout focusing on arms and shoulders which I rotate in every other cycle (ABABC, repeat):
Workout A
1. Squat
2. Chin-up
3. Chest Press
4. Row
5. Shoulder Press
6. Stiff-leg Deadlift
7. Weighted Crunch
8. Thick Bar Reverse Curl
9. Thick Bar Wrist Curl
Workout B
1. Deadlift
2. Dip
3. Parallel-grip Pull-up
4. Incline Press
5. Underhand-grip Low Row
6. Quad Blaster Squat
7. Heel Raise
8. Neck Extension
9. Neck Flexion
Workout C
1. Arm Curl
2. Negative-only Chin-up
3. Triceps Extension
4. Negative-only Dip
5. Rear Delt Fly
6. Lateral Raise
7. Pullover
8. Squat
9. Heel Raise
Hi Drew ,
I recently started this way of cadance and reported the initial experience on BBS via W.O.W posting.I want to share it here too:
OME calves
nautilus 2st legpress
seated legcurl
nautilus 2st legpress
nautilus 2st neck ext./flx.
nautilus 2st rotary
As posted above some exercises were done 3/8 negative emphazised done. I increased the legpress with 10 kg and the ome with 5 kg compared to previous workouts with an 6/6 cadence. To get a perfect workout I need a few more instance to get used to a faster positive,the negative and lower turnaround are no problem.The positive could been 4 seconds and certainly 5-6 seconds on the last positive rep.
Reps as expected the same (tul),feeling in muscles…….not a bursting pump but fatigue.And more so the hours after.I feel some fatigue while sitting,then it vanes then it comes again.Same as with moving around.I expect soreness tomorrow.I know it’s no sign of anything but I like the feeling of deep fatigue in the fibers.
As till now I think that a somewhat higher weight(as resistance)with described execution is a good solution to ‘not optimal’equipment for Renex. method. Despite I did always a faster cadance the negative still was unloaded a bit.The shoulderpress I have gives me however a runaway negative aftyer 5 reps of 6-6 cadance.
My experimenting is based on Drew Baye’s writing about it.Just to let you know.
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I always was convinced of the importance of the negative fase and also the fatigue,very shortage of ATP,to make more possible micro trauma.Moving more to the dircetion you suggest makes sense.
Hope you will soon come with an update and the interview with Ryan Hall regarding the importance of the negative and his disaproval of fatigue as such.
Have a great day,
ad
Hey Ad,
I’m still at 3/10 and getting good results with it, and may just continue training this way. Ryan accepted my request to do an interview for the site, we just haven’t gotten around to it yet.
Drew ,
Thanks for answering. I too will stay with it the coming months and probably for the future as such(on most exercises ).
If the intetview is going on ask (if you want) how much the idea of ‘rigor mortis’of as many fibers as possible within the correct timeframe is of influence to get the most of stimulation.
‘Rigor mortis’ is what I like as my real object of exercise.Just kidding ofcourse but it is nevertheless why I want to inroad.
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Hi Drew,
Just wondering how you are getting on with the 3/10 protocol or if you’ve switched to a different cadence and/or routine?
Thanks and best regards,
Jamie.
Hey Jamieson,
I’ve modified it to 4/8. I increased the duration of the positive because the three second cadence felt a little fast on exercises with longer range of motion when including turnaround time. I reduced the negative somewhat arbitrarily, because 4/8 is a half the speed of the traditional Nautilus 2/4 protocol and half the rep range at half the speed results in approximately the same time under load (4/8 x 4-6 reps and 2/4 x 8-12 reps both give you a TUL of 48 to 72 seconds). This also gives a ratio of the positive and negative duration similar to the 30:30:30 repetitions which produced great results for Ellington Darden’s recent fat loss groups.
Thanks Drew, much appreciated. I ran an experiment with 4/4, 4/8, 3/10 and finally 3/6, using the same routine but using each cadence for 3 months, with all other factors remaining constant, and have found 3/6 to be the most effective for me in terms of size and strength gains, which I guess follows the simplistic notion of the negative being twice the duration of the positive.
On a separate note, are you still publishing (or have you already published) Elements of Form/Advanced HIT methods as I’d love to buy a copy if it’s available?
Thanks again and best regards,
Jamie.
Hey Jamieson,
A 3/6 protocol would still be adequately slow for most people for most movements, but I prefer to err on the side of caution thus the slightly slower 4/8. The three second positive felt too fast on deadlifts and squats, and rather than have different cadences for different exercises I like to pick one and stick to it. I wrote about this in Q&A: Should I Use A Different Repetition Cadence For Different Exercises?
I’m on track to have Elements of Form (which will contain all the info from Advanced HIT Methods and be sent to those who pre-ordered) out in May.
Thanks Drew, I read the article on using different rep speeds and found it very helpful.
Unfortunately I missed the chance to pre order EoF when you first advertised it but I’ll definitely order the book in May as soon as it’s available.
Thanks again,
Jamie.
Hey Jamie,
You’re welcome. I’ll be posting an announcement on the site as soon as EoF is available.
Hi Drew, you mentioned the study, the three groups. But did the last group (RP-NTF) do every rep as rest-pause? What I mean is, did they do 4 or 5 consecutive reps, and then do the remaining 4 or 5 reps in the rest pause fashion? Or was EVERY rep (starting from the first rep to the last) performed in the rest pause fashion? If this is so, wouldn’t the short gap between each rep (even if it’s only ten seconds or so) fail to provide full, continuous tension on the muscles?
Hey Al,
Every repetition was performed as rest-pause. This does fail to provide full, continuous tension, but continuous tension is not necessary to stimulate improvements in muscular strength and size or other factors of functional ability as long as the intensity of effort is high. What continuous loading does is increase the rate of fatigue so less weight is required to achieve momentary muscular failure within some number of repetitions. As long as the stimulus is just as effective a lower load is preferable for safety as well as convenience when using barbells or plate-loaded machines.
Hi Drew, interesting article ! I’m just starting HIT, I do 5s positive, 5s negative. I’ll try to emphasize negative more to see the difference. I’m still trying to get wrap my head around how to progress doing HIT.
Let’s say I’m doing a pulldown set with 110lbs and I manage to stay 60 sec under tension until failure with good form. Next time, should I aim for same weight but 90sec TUL or 115lbs with 60s TUL ?
Thanks and keep up the great work !
Hey Nino,
A variety of load and repetition ranges can be effective so either way works. A repetition range that allows for between 60 and 90 seconds time under load seems to work well for most people.